Home Opinion Interviews An interesting dialogue between me and BabyChen Mathew

An interesting dialogue between me and BabyChen Mathew

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We usually start like this Hi, can I have a favor from you, other person says SURE and we start I need this, by the way did you see this etc etc.. So this the story of the day When a Courageous Pakistani student Samad Khurram refused to receive an award from the US Ambassador. He as fortunately has been my friend for quiet a few months back. So I referred my article cum interview to

BabayChen Mathew

( Journalist-entrepreneur. Worked in several media organizations in India) by saying “can i also ask for one favour Somebody has to take Initiative can you please Stumble it and write a small review for it”

Here is the dialogue started after this favour

Babaychen: okay, i read it earlier, my opinion of it is quite different though, and for example…he could say that to the US ambassador in US, right? Now, how safe is an American speaking about India or Pakistan in our countries in a public forum? Our people throw stones instantly

me: let them but tell you they don’t they respect to opinion?

Babaychen: Who Indians and Pakistanis? We are quick to take offence, quick to arrest, beat up, we would say, how can someone come to our country and speak against us throw him out, arrest him that’s one aspect…

me: yups, but if we are not on mistake, if we attacked on some country to we must accept that offence but if we have not committed any offense why should we?

Babaychen: do we ever accept our mistakes? Your country, mine, and probably china are some of the most self deceiving about our own mistakes we are always right

me: in Pakistan our politicians do not admit but we Pakistanis are always offensive over their deeds.

Babaychen: India is not very different

me: to what our government does we are the ultimate sufferers so we are ashamed.. and adding we are apologetic also..

Babaychen: yea, but we also think our countries can do no wrong

me: see we are peace lovers right? You, I and millions like us do not want to see any problem on LOC but our armies have been fighting like dogs “aray nahee hum yeh nahee sochtay”

Babaychen: see, have you tried making any Pakistani admits that they were wrong in something very big, something to do with the country? Same goes for Indians

me: I cant claim that I tried to convinced them, these are not the people who do wrong things but governments commit mistakes and on individual level, I tell you it is a cognitive dissonance for what our and any government do to our country

Babaychen: see there is one more thing….look at the increasing dislike towards Musharraf

me: yups?

Babaychen: now, where is it all coming from? True, he is unconstitutional
but coups have happened before and may still happen again then he allied with America

me: hmmnn…

Babaychen: but at that point anyone would have allied with America. They were perfectly willing to attack Pakistan if Pakistan did not help them fight the Taliban, if Musharraf had refused there would have been hell so he tried to use the bad situation; it didn’t work..No Pakistani prime minister or president has ever stood up to America and that’s real politics. India is lucky that we did not face such a situation but if America gives an ultimatum to any Pakistani or Indian PM or president we would give up

me: you guys are better i must admit u stood up against every odd to your country, Pakistanis Particularly politicians never did this

Babaychen: not that better, we are luckier in some ways

me: hmmnn.. True see people like Shaukat Aziz are imported from US how can they be standing up against anything

Babaychen: but against America, we are all in the same boat.

me: hmmn…

Babaychen: see, I have read that every Pakistani politician is a hardcore businessman; imagine if America gives an ultimatum to Pakistan now to the new PM…… he would also give in..

me: Let me add here that if he is not hardcore business man, he becomes after getting some Federal or provincial Ministry and corruption starts. It becomes really easier for politicians to earn money from the people who have some kind of work to be done

Babaychen: India has been careful not to get into such a situation. But in that particular situation when US wanted Pakistan’s Yes or NO Musharraf did not have any choice, and nobody is left with choice when country is being threat like this. Imagine china giving an ultimatum to India. China is a country which will allow 10 % of its population to be nuked if they can destroy 40 % of India. You think India can fight? we cant when faced with a much larger force every politician gets practical the student Sammad! What is your real choice? If you were the president what would you do? Say, Richard Armitage comes and tells you side with US or we bomb your country to the Stone Age

me: i agree being practical and differentiate between idealism is machvellian politics and realistic politics, but even then no one can allow invading anyone’s country.. And recently Obama has shown his desire to bomb Pakistan.and if contextualizing in what u say, Samad’s step was breaking the silence and a drop of water or may be small stone in stream to create causation

Babaychen: Sammad could say it because in America, he could say it and still live there. And despite all America’s foreign policy evils, they believe in freedom to talk

me: yups and why do they say, self interests of few

Babaychen: and he will live there in India if he sys something like that against us; he wont be able to go to college someone will kill him, same
Is the case in Pakistan. It’s easy to be a hero in words

me: i guess we discussed the same things in circle who thinks they are really skeptical and pay attention more to the conspiracy theories more than the reality itself. We discussed that it can be his finagled act to be in mainstream politics.. and though his security .. but finally we concluded if someone is so daring to take step like this he is secured..
i know me and my friends also discuss that anti Musharraf is good idea to be popular and on International forums anti Pakistan mood is good to be popular

Babaychen: saying that India is wrong in India by a Pakistani – that is gutsy. Saying that Pakistan is wrong in Pakistan by an Indian – that’s gutsy. in America, they will listen to you politely, maybe a few people will shout… that’s it.. Yes, every politician in Pakistan knows that Musharraf did not have any option every single one of them but if they were in his position they would have obeyed America, made lots of money and left the country by now .. Msuharraf at least is still there

me: had they been in his position they could have refused sweetheart Nawaz Sharif did, BB did

Babaychen: they never got an ultimatum like mush got they were just lucky

me: but they get nothing in return one is killed other was exiled for several years

Babaychen: Nawaz Sharif went to US and begged with Clinton who scolded him like schoolteacher

me: Nawaz Sharif was phoned by Clinton himself not to test nukes

Babaychen: Benazir Bhutto ran away from the country. Yea.. What about kargil.. Every single person says it was humiliating treatment testing nukes. That was nothing. America knew Pakistan had nukes, they knew India had nukes too.. No practical difference

Babaychen: see gutless politicians are normal everywhere

me: in this region a balance of power was needed, humiliation in kargil was due to our generals.. They are bikao maal.. Yeah they are normal but some one can take some action?

Babaychen: who? Pakistan can be totally safe

me: never.. it can never be safe

Babaychen: if they decide that ISI would not help al Qaeda or Taliban but even Pakistani government says they do give America no reason to come to Pakistan. Is America going to Sweden? No.

me: Musharraf said it because he has to make himself safe and prolong his rule, Government does not say agencies and establishment are both running govt.. Very diplomatically they can say at the right time and really know when to admit it and when not or even say they are helping them..

Babaychen: Is u saying no support in Pakistan for Taliban or al Qaeda?

me: nops, I am not saying this.. That no support. Everyone knows who is helping al Qaeda and who is not, Afghanistan and India both are involved. Raw is directly involved

Babaychen: yes

Babaychen: RAW wants a foothold that’s international politics but in international politics and strategies. The trick also is to stay out of trouble
India supports Iran even in the UN

me: their r certain elements when lal masjid incidents happens, when Bajour and Waziristan and Mohammand agency is attacked directly by the US allied NATO forces..

Babaychen: yes

me: who will not stand against government?

Babaychen: standing against government, without fixing the real problem is pointless… the frontier provinces are out of control. Why? In a country no place should be out of control like that

me: tribal areas are out of control for their own problems..

Me: when it is RAW then its international political strategies, and when ISI it is involved in everything even in supporting al Qaeda

Babaychen: hahaha.. yes.. That’s called reality. You have to play the game and stay safe. Pakistan plays the game but very badly

Babaychen: aren’t the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan?

me: they had their own issues and the terrain they have in those areas do not support anyone to hide there so then it is seepage from Afghanistan

Babaychen: yes

me: if they bordered

Babaychen: it is

me: a missed and failed US policy ; Afghanistan.. Creating problems for Pakistan totally mishandled. And repercussions are in front of Pakistan..

Babaychen: America is only concerned about their own safety. If they feel safe, they will not care about anything in ur country. They don’t feel safe if u have nuclear bombs, they don’t feel safe if there are Taliban
fix the problem. Who will fix it?

me: Pakistan faces music only for having dictators, and who is not letting the democracy flourishing in Pakistan.. And who’s interest are involved in it. It is very clear. And what if some other country is unsafe due to US?

Babaychen: who has the military muscle? That’s all that matters in the end

me: should they not start taking measure like pre emptive doctrines

Babaychen: yes if they can

me: well, in political economy it is all game by the international monetary agencies who play gimmicks.. To control and through media sets moods and public opinion… if they can then y u say that Sammad was wrong

Babaychen: Sammad is not wrong

me: or even his gesture was not supportive

Babaychen: its easy heroism, If Musharraf had said NO to US, and US had attacked Pakistan. You would have been happy?

me: i do not refuse, it is easy heroism. I admitted it
even in my article, I have admitted it

Babaychen: yea

me: we are skeptical and can smell things

Babaychen: yea but see if Mush, very patriotically, had gone against US… the country would have been very happy…. or would everyone have said, his arrogance cost us our country

me: come on man.. If we admit for some time he took a prudent step to save country.. ok.. His work is done he should stepped down.. y is he sticking as an unconstitutional president

Babaychen: 2 part answer
1. He wants power, now used to it.
2. He is someone who attacked India, and is patriotic in that sense. He thinks that the politicians will sell the country as they don’t have even his guts or realism both are right people are not one sided

me: and see US needs Pakistan, they deliberately played a game, Nawaz was pre planed exiled to bring Mush to get US interests served cause he was not accountable in front of public as he was not elected president

me: Musharraf is shameless… he thinks he is only panacea to Pakistan’s problem.. Playing scams.. Yesterday said that other 9/11 is being planed in Pakistan

Babaychen: yes.. Is that a bad thing? If he thinks so, u can say he is wrong, but not evil

me: masses only need basic necessities now.. They hardly pay attention to what is going in politics.. He is wrong, these r the chaal bazi of pita hoa mohra… when he says this entire one can clearly smell that he needs to gain favors from US.

Babaychen: see u are moving from one topic to the other. Try to answer each one. i can answer such questions about India easily. For example, would you like a patriotic defeated president? or a practical president who’s crooked but saved the country from war? what’s ur answer?

me: and listen he has nothing in his pocket to show on table, You are compelling me to move right left, i am just answering.. Now for me.. What he did at that time was practical and prudent for that time.. US needed Pakistan due to its strategic location… in this region to reach warm waters..

Babaychen: agreed. so we cant blame him for what he did then. Right?

me: president with practicality is ok for that time, now even US does not want him to stay.. and Military is not supporting him

Babaychen: yes. Now let’s look at the options say mush goes

me: he must quit, see even establishment knows when to get suicide attacks in country? Pakistan could never handle its own attacks how can it promote and support A Qaeda

Babaychen: then what happens? Things will get better? hahahah its not that simple

me: yes its not that simple , for other country’s attack planning

Babaychen: but anyway, every country does all kinds of stuff simultaneously India screws up in the north east and plots in Afghanistan why? every country does that

me: I am going to give this conversation on my blog

me: see against China US helped India..

Babaychen: okay, but you think things will get better if mush leaves?

me: at least in tribal areas.. Large extent people have grudge against him. He let NATO to violate our airspace and kill our innocent people

Babaychen: I will tell u that if mush goes, tribal areas will cool down. But US will still do what it wants, as when Taliban run away from there to tribal areas, they will follow and attack inside and the new president will make some noises that’s it

me: he was involved in attackin masjid where innocent females including 5-10 years old small girls studying there.

Babaychen: haha see Indian army once attacked the golden temple

me: i know

Babaychen: lots of innocents died but there were terrorists with bombs inside too what’s the difference?

me: it was proved no terrorist was there in lal masjid

Babaychen: There were bombs and machine guns discovered
it even came on TV. Your own TV channels

me: aray bhai those arms were produced by the army people who were there for operation silence

Babaychen: it came on your own TV channels, private TV channels, which the army dislikes

me: All TV channels reveal truth? see phosphorus bombs were used there human flesh was not there, guns were found what a funny thing

Babaychen: are you saying, there was no one inside with a gun?

me: tell me something if you are dying, and know that people standing out will kill you, would you tell a lie? yes or no

Babaychen: who’s dying

me: i am asking u just for example, You are dying suppose

Babaychen: whatever i think will save my life, if it’s a lie which will save my life, i will lie, if its truth, i will say the truth

me: but if you are 100 % sure you are going die then?

Babaychen: 100 % sure? i don’t know. Have u seen someone in absolute panic? He becomes an animal, he may say anything, same for me..” the answer means nothing, as i am not human when i am in full panic”

me: even he is in panic he would never lie, and same was the case with Ghazi Rasheed who was in the mosque and he told while bomb were thrown in the masjid that they don’t have anyone there in masjid no foreigners or no guns

Babaychen: see the siege was there for 2 weeks or more

me: anyways.. Listen if it was the case the weapons were dumped it was Mush who let those go in the heart of capital..

Babaychen: military shouted for two weeks for everyone to come out and surrender

me: come on

Babaychen: i saw people firing weapons from inside on your own TV

me: Military did not shout it was Chuadry Shujaat Hussain who mishandled situation; they cut off their electricity, gas, food supply.. and detained them

Babaychen: Tell me who were the people who were shouting at the army from inside? i saw them on TV; are u saying it was a movie show by the army on tv?

me: They were the people who were against the policies of Musharraf; and IF there were weapons (according to media reports upon which you and other people think; those people were shouting on army), Here I strongly believe were not.. Why government had allowed those to be dumped in center of capital

Babaychen: ahahh

me: listen lal Masjid is total mystery we know what went there

Babaychen: first, let’s assume there were weapons… how did they get inside? They did not walk inside by themselves, someone carried them, and someone allowed them inside; who? The government is not a single focused entity, parts of the government maybe ISI were in support of that, and other parts weren’t; so some people allowed them in, and others wanted them to surrender

me: yups , i know its not single entity… mush himself let thosego and then attacked to make the US clear that “oh I am performing great job against these terrorists”..

Babaychen: maybe.. see what you are saying is possible, but not likely no politician is that stupid

me: How much stupid? see what US did, pre emptive measures.. Now they are letting the Iran get Nukes, Iran would never get.. Cause like in Iraq on pretext of WMD US attacked but got nothing only oil..

Babaychen: not even oil

me: hmmn.. now not even oil that’s what we know.. So now new strategy is to put things first there what you want to produced.. And they make noise against it and then discover and then tell world see we were right. Iraq oil ministry has allowed 4 companies to extract oil from iraq now in last four decades this is first time

Babaychen: they went to Iraq because bush wanted Saddam Hussain. And a big miscalculation that war would be easy.

me: miscalculation.. Sounds WOW.. US can monitor one single act through satellite and they can’t calculate the war would be easy

Babaychen: yes.. okay if what you are saying is true, then we cant do anything in any case, we should just give up and let America rule your country.. if America is that smart

me: We are already a neo colony of US.. Cause our economy is hijacked by IMF and World Bank

Babaychen: why? in 1980 Pakistan was financially better than India i have heard so what happened?

me: they want to get sympathies over their soldiers.. That they r being killed there for self defense.. And now we are responsible to protect them.. khud aaj main jhonk ker us ki aag seeknay wali baat hai

Babaychen: they have made mistakes again and again
You don’t read American newspapers? No body there thought the war would last that’s why they are struggling and failing

me: those newspapers are balancing factors my dear friend..
just to cool their people down … it is again political strategies.. Media hah media is in hands of those who start wars

Babaychen: see i notice one thing when I talk to u which is somewhat different in India…. we will quickly blame ourselves, not just our politicians now You are just being funny.. Too many conspiracy theories see when things go wrong in India.. We may blame everyone.. but we blame ourselves the most. We say, our own people encouraged problems. i don’t see u saying that my Hindu friends will say that we have made mistakes, Sikhs will say it………Christians will say it that We made mistakes and i don’t see u saying, we Pakistanis made mistakes

me: tell you if u will scroll back i in start admitted about the mistakes

me: they can say “WE”.. Because their representatives take actions but we are surviving under imposed dictatorship for almost 40 years.. Those dictators are not our elected representatives

Babaychen: its always military, politicians, America.. why are there dictators in Pakistan?

Babaychen: ok.. Agreed

me: see when politicians are coming from feudal families and imported from west.. They ultimately have to be like CIA agents

Babaychen: ok. so now we admit that your military has dictatorial tendencies, and politicians are CIA agents. Who is left who is truly capable and patriotic and can lead the country?

me: I have a reason to say that they suddenly start saying oh things are going out of control.. And then military beaurcracy plunges and takes the control.. and then you realize that US has to have a proxy war against Soviet Union so it needed Zia to use Afghanistan again USSR then there is along period.. then democracy then again US needs to play its games for twin towers.. Then its Musharraf.. Before they need Ayyub to break Pakistan.. to weaken it..

Babaychen: so we say, army can’t be trusted, politicians can’t be trusted. US too. So now where is the solution?

me: being prudent, we admit no one reliable.. This time we thought Benazir Bhutto will be solution as she behaved matured though she had deals with Musharraf. But she realized that it was difficult to fulfil those deals thus she started aligning herself and result was her assissnation. She talked about the people of Pakistan.. In whole South Asia no leader is there who talks about the rights of general masses. If any leader say he or she can not survive and always assassinated.. check the history.. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was assassinated only because he talked right.. Bugti and a ling list.. see in your own country..

Babaychen: ok ok

me: now this is youth.. Who has to come up to end this pseudo democracy

Babaychen: end and then what

me: youth that understand the problems but again i have problem
Our youth has been taught what US agenda is, our curriculum is changed

Babaychen: see if things are that bad, Pakistan should merge with America

me: Their cognitive development is now in powerless and hand cut things.. in this context we can admire the heroic deeds of Samad. Listen, i told you we r neo colony of US.. we need not merge.. jab US ka kaam chal rha hai aisy he to why Pakistan should merged

me: it is not a solution it is a statement coming from a man who considers Musharraf is right, he might have read kotlya chankya
Urth Shaster

Babaychen: mush is not right, but nobody seems to be right.. say there is an honest politician.. who becomes the president or PM.. what should he do to fix things?

me: we wanted Imran Khan to come, but people think he played immature.. Anyways he knew establishment would never want him to come.. So he prudently withdrawn his papers to keep himself safe from shamelessness that he himself could not win cause elections are manipulated not in Pakistan but everywhere.. it is good question, like India in Pakistan there are 101 political parties.. Unlike US where only two parties operates.. people in India and Pakistan remain divided on issue like provincialism, autonomy, constitution, ethnic issue, racial issues, human rights, justice etc etc.. Even separatists like Sikhs are there so political instability is due to these so many parties.. Like Kala Bagh Dam was made intentionally an issue political issue..

Babaychen: yes

me: all new PM needs to unite this mob to one direction and build confidence in them and keep his all machinery in the straight lines to follow his instructions..our confusion and politician’s corruption needs someone who has confidence within all Pakistan..

Babaychen: yes… there is no such person

me: there was Benazir.. now People think Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudary.. the politics in Pakistan has very interesting maslaful story in Pakistan..

Babaychen: but what if the army doesn’t trust that guy? does the army trust any politician?

me: army suppose to be in barracks , they are to follow not to order

Babaychen: but that’s not the reality

me: every organ of state machinery has its specified functions to perform.. Every institution has its norms.. And all the problems emerge when those institutions powers are intermingled and people try to snatch power.. This week institutionalism

Babaychen: yes and if one organ likes the army refuses to do so? like they have been doing

me: this has got its roots since British were here they revolt, civil war.. and yes there is a power called media.. They sets moods and Public Opinion

Babaychen: yes but what do u do now?

me: i recommend a constitutional fair government where everyone is doing their own jobs,.. and where rights are protected justice is available to everyone.. and people are provided with basic necessities of life like food, education, health, electricity, housing.. etc

Babaychen: army doesn’t give up their power. they will not become a normal army in a long time

me: yups case military and civil burucracies are the left overs and seeded evils of British rule. They can never because the norms are set in a way. They are to stick to power. However the connotation of power is changed..

Babaychen: yes but its the same army in India too.. same leftover

me: your institutions are strong and let these to be flourished in one direction.. and those have been stronger with passage of time..

Babaychen: yes but its still a leftover of the British. so what went right here? and what went wrong there? and why?

me: many think tank in Pakistan say that had India been Muslim country there problems would have been more or less like us..

Babaychen: why so?

me: You know this very well.. and if i ll start explaining it will be a new chapter so lets sleep.. Lets finish this episode here..

Babaychen: hehe.. yea.. Good night too late here too

me: Good Night

2 COMMENTS

  1. Wow, what a conversation! I liked the broad expanse of knowledge that both you and Babychen show here. One may or may not agree with one or both of you at different times of the conversation…. but then the mind is always making value judgment and that does not let you listen. So, I read intently and learned more than I had earlier known.

    Please do more of such conversational blog posts! 🙂

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